What Your Business Is Actually Returning to You with Keri Kugler | EP 609

Sheila sits down with leadership mentor and strategist Keri Kugler, host of The Aligned Woman Podcast, for a conversation on what ROI actually means once revenue stops being the only number that counts.

They talk through Sheila's framework, the Four Returns, and what happens when founders build without tracking all four.

Full show notes, transcript, and chapters at sheilabotelho.com/609

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Transcript

Who Decided ROI Means Money

Speaker 0:01

Who made the rules up that said this is the only way that ROI is measured? And it's only through the number, it's only through the bottom line. This is how we've been conditioned. And I remember hearing you say that and it touching this deeper knowing in me of, oh my God, I've thought that ROI was this for so long. And whoa, what if it's actually measured in so much more than we've been led to believe?

Meet Keri And Set The Frame

Sheila 0:35

Hi, welcome to the podcast. I'm Sheila Botelho, and I believe true success is built from the inside out. Today I'm thrilled to have with me a special guest. I have known Keri Kugler for years. It feels like decades, but it's probably only maybe five, six years. And that is what happens when a connection runs deep and you stay in touch across the miles the way we have. Carrie is a leadership mentor and strategist at the intersection of identity and strategy. She helps online business owners who have done years of the inner work, but whose business results haven't always caught up to who they have become in that process. She's the host of the Aligned Woman podcast, and I can't even wait to have this conversation start. This conversation will be airing on both of our shows. And it's going to be just that. It's not an interview, it is a conversation. Because Carrie and I have been talking about this topic for a while now. So today we're just letting you in on it. Welcome, Keri. So happy you're here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. So I want to start back at the beginning. I remember sending you a voice note. I was driving and I was sending you a voice note about the ways we measure ROI. And for those, I mean, I think everybody knows what ROI is, but I'll just say return on investment. And it's something that people want in business, obviously. But I also was talking about how there's room for so many different ways to define it and how success looks different for each of us and how we get to define it for ourselves instead of measuring against someone else's version. So, first of all, do you recall? I'm sure many things came up for you, and it's been a while, but do you recall what came up for you when you first heard me say that?

Speaker 2:30

I do. And it's challenging because you and I have, I feel like we go into little portals inside of Voxer almost every single day. But this one really stood out, especially when it comes to ROI and women and how we measure it, how we go about it. And you said something, and I'm sure we'll get to it, but in this conversation around who, and this is me kind of summarizing what I heard in the message. Who made the rules up that said this is the only way that ROI is measured? And it's only through the number, it's only through the bottom line. And it landed in such a beautiful way because this is how we've been conditioned. And I just I I remember hearing you say that and and it like touching this deeper knowing in me of oh my God, I've thought that ROI was this for so long. And whoa, what if it's actually measured in so much more than we've been led to believe? So, yes, I very much remember that conversation.

Sheila 3:50

Well, and what was so great for me in sharing that, but like it's interesting how we have these little downloads that happen and we can get really jazzed about them, but it's when we let it out of our mouth and out of our mind into conversation, and it resonates for someone and more than more than one someone in many cases. But I remember feeling really like when you responded back to me, it really struck me how powerful this message could be for others. And and it is worth noting that shortly after, this was early March of this year, and it's currently July, early July. And

A Health Scare That Changed Focus

Sheila 4:35

we actually were going to have a conversation about it then, like a few weeks later. And it was scheduled for I think mid-March. And then the day before, I started feeling this horrible stomach pain, like nothing I'd felt before, but I it really felt kind of like a stomach bug or something. And I thought I picked something up from somewhere. And so I, you know, said, Hey, we need to reschedule. And of course, you're very gracious. And then it turned out to be that I needed an emergency appendectomy. So we were derailed for a while from having this conversation. Um, so because a lot of time passed. But what I found in that stillness was a chance to look at my whole life. And it's interesting because I had started that saying, hey, we're going to talk about this. And then I decided I'm going to write a book about it because this is a framework. There's so much I can share about this. And then the appendectomy happened. And I started to look at everything from what in my life needed to stay, what needed to go, right down to my mindset, the things I was pouring myself into, and even some people in my life. And it gave me time to sit with many of the client journeys that I've been guiding over the years. And I noticed patterns that kept showing up, along with a lot of gratitude for what's grown out of those relationships, too. And you had some breakthroughs of your own during that stretch, ones that have shaped what's happened in your business since, like including two events that you had not seen on the horizon. So I think this is a testament to showing that we're always on time and we're never behind because there's something rich coming out of whatever our our experience is. So I'd love for you to please share about that timing for you, like what was coming up. Kind of like in the in the spring, it's like seeds were being planted and starting to poke through the soil. What did that season reveal for you?

Identity Work Beyond The Mind

Speaker 6:38

The one word that is coming to me is identity. And as women who I would go as far as to say consider themselves in the work and dedicated to the work. But I'm also an Aries, so March and spring is always a time of essentially rebirth for me. Um but and and it wasn't even a complete shift in my identity, but it was a deepening of all of the work that I have done. And not just knowing it from the level of my mind, but really embodying it on a cellular level. And that's just it's like as high achieving women, I think sometimes even the inner work can be something that we're just checking off, something that we're even measuring, just like we do ROI. And it's like, but are we learning all of the inner work from the level of the mind, or are we actually integrating it and embodying it? And that, you know, it's it it was that kind of cellular level shift that it did. It it lived within who I was being and how I saw myself as a leader and the work that I'm here to do. It really just deepened all of that. And like you said, it started to shape different relationships, who I surrounded myself with, different structures within my business, how I looked at and thought about money and just everything that I touch. And that's, I think one of the beautiful and really powerful things about identity work is when we have a sort of upheaval like that, it affects every single thing that we touch in business. And while this breakthrough sounds great, oh, it it strengthened my identity. It didn't look that way in the process. In the process, it was very uncertain and tumultuous and and scary at times. Um, and it was that very thing that it was, it was just this culmination of so much of the work that I've done over the last several years. And it was like the universe saying, okay, this is the moment where you actually break through and this work becomes who you are, not something you have to achieve.

Sheila 9:35

That is so powerful. And I think, you know, as you talk about it, so it was March, and I know you had come through some shifts in the way you were delivering your um skill through the first part of the year. Like a lot of changes had happened. And so you were metabolizing that and integrating new things, and you know, you'd sign some new clients, I remember specifically, because we talk about this kind of stuff, and it was really fun to see how you came through a shift. And that was like the first quarter of the year when a lot was happening. It was like, it's almost like again, the idea of the winter where everything is just laying fallow, everything is just there. It looks like nothing's happening, but there was so much happening on the insides of your business. Like no one on the outside would have seen, but you and I would know like what was happening for both of us, because I had a lot of things happening in my world as well, which caused me to want to really simplify and focus and get rid of anything extraneous in terms of what my offerings were. And so we were going through something similar at a similar time, even though our businesses are different in a way. We do very similar work. And um, and so I think it's interesting then that very shortly after you started to promote these events that you that you had. I mean, you can share about what they were because I think they were so empowering for you to create, but especially for the people who came through them. So maybe share what what the what you created, the the first and then the second event, because I know you had the first event, and then from that was birthed the next event, and now there's other things on the horizon for you. So yeah, feel free to share like what came up and the results, like what people came back to you with after they were there.

Build The Room You Want

Speaker 11:19

Yeah. Well, and it's crazy too. And I even forgot about this because it feels like a past lifetime ago. But and I've mentioned this a little bit on my podcast, but before March, I had been in a pretty full-time role of doing more kind of strategic uh social media coaching with a like an actual coaching company, and made a really sort of stark um shift out of that. And within a month, did my first in-person event. And it was something that I've had on my heart for years, that I thought, you know, I need this first and I'll do it when and blah, blah, blah, right? All the things that we say all the time. And there was just this fire in me that was like, no, I'm doing this now. And I remember telling you, Sheila, that I had this voice in my head that said, if you see that there's a gap and that these rooms that you want to build for these incredible women who are building heart-led, soul-led businesses, if the room doesn't exist, then go build the room. And I did. It was called Conscious Women and Business. And it was, you know, a little bit of strategy, but the identity work behind the business. And that's something that I know you and I are both obsessed with is yes, the business and yes, the bottom line, and all of the things that we want. But we're more interested in the woman and in the human behind the business because that's what actually moves things forward in a sustainable kind of way. And so that's what the first event was. And then I did a second event, event, I don't know, maybe a month and a half-ish after that. Um, very, very intimate. It was about client attraction and money. So more kind of like segmented down, a mastermind kind of round table style that was great because it allowed me to get into the like nitty-gritty mechanics of the businesses of the women who were there. Um, so yeah, and it it the feedback that I heard, and I'm sure you can attest to this too, is just how women are craving that kind of like that that connection, that in-person, real, vulnerable, show me your story connection, and who are craving something deeper. And that know, yes, I'm here to build this thing on the surface, but I'm not here to do it like anybody else. I'm not here to do it in the cookie cutter way. There's a way I'm meant to bring this forward. And I think so many of us are just hungry for that right now.

Sheila 14:07

Truly, and and seeing how, like even you and I coming up in our in our experiences of being in this business and you know, having our own coaches and mentors and programs and things that we've been a part of, and seeing, you know, you take the the stuff that you want to use and it's fantastic, and maybe some things you want to model, and then you see the things that you don't want to see anymore. Um, and and you really make the change, like you say, that you want to see. And I feel like this kind of some of the things that I've been wanting to see change in the way business is operating is starting to happen organically. Actually, I would say the last few years specifically, but I've really seen it in the last six months with the way people are really tired of just, you know, profit at all costs, hustle it, hustle, hustle until you're, you know, broken. And, you know, wanting to create a sense of freedom and possibility while, you know, working intentionally, putting in the time, doing the reps, all those things, but doing it in a way that actually honors their body, their families, their time, their energy, right? And it's it's the reason why that's the work that I do, um, helping people in that regard.

The Four Returns Framework

Sheila 15:29

Um, like how do you build your business in such a way? Because you need to be so focused, right? But my whole premise has always been the health of the business is directly correlated to the health of the founder. And so we need to take care of ourselves first. We need to do those foundational things. And that's why the four returns framework that I developed earlier this year is really something that I've been teaching, but just didn't have language for. And so it tracks these things, one of them being the identity. So it's like the revenue ROI, identity ROI, which is like the second thing, which really should be the first thing, but people understand revenue first, right? That's what they want to hear. Then it's relational ROI, like who's your circle, and your energetic ROI, which is your life force. And these are all the things that I really believe determine what is success for us. And each of those different pieces of the framework are going to look different for everyone. Like which is which is the one they need to work on the most, which is the one they want to pour more time into, which is the one they feel they have dialed. And of course, so many things flow out of that. And because you do identity work, and that is very much the focus, because obviously this is something that kept you really noticed it coming up for clients over and over. What do you think is the second most common one to come up for you if you're looking at, you know, revenue ROI, relational ROI, energetic ROI? Like what would you say of those three that your clients uh tend to be mostly needing focus on?

Speaker 17:09

I

Energetic ROI And Aligned Action

Speaker 17:10

would say energetic.

Sheila 17:12

Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 17:13

Yeah. Energetic and my brain, when I think about my clients, the energetic ROI is actually connected to the actions that they're taking day to day inside of their business because the action itself makes up an energy. And that sort of energy is, you know, compounded. I don't want to get like too woo-woo here, but that compounded is what is creating our results. And it's like, yes, the identity work is very, very important. And so is the day-to-day energy that flows through your business. What does that look like? The actions that you're taking, how focused you are on the things that are truly moving the needle, not the things that you have been distracting yourself with. And, you know, the actions that you take that honestly are just more kind of busy work. Because I, when I get into a woman's business, what I can see a lot of the time is they are showing up, they are doing the inner work, they are taking action, but it's action that is rooted in, you know, a version of them that that they've outgrown, or the action that they're taking doesn't hold a sort of like the energy that matches who they're becoming. So it's an energetic conversation, and this does it, it looks at what are you doing practically in the day-to-day mechanics of your business? And are the actions you're taking truly aligned with yes, who you're becoming, but where you want to go.

Sheila 19:04

Yeah, it's interesting how we can distract ourselves so easily with, you know, we we have the plan, it's right there. We just need to move through the plan. But then there's this kind of other element that comes in. I think it's really connected to the identity piece. Like you say, it's like very often people are wanting to move through and do something new, but because it's new or it's an elevated version of what they've been doing already, they're remembering their experience as the past version of themselves, how they were. And so it is like reconnecting to your identity before you, like your current identity right now, or the one that you're aspiring to in order to move you through those next steps, because it can be very easy to have the aft the action steps right in front of you and then be like, okay, yes, this is on the list today. I'm gonna do this. And you just totally do something different, and it derails derails the the um momentum moving forward. And like I'm a very, very big proponent, like you are, of uh human design and you know, understanding ourselves and spending time really connecting to divine. And, you know, I really believe we're co-creators of what we're putting out into the world, and we can get a little heavy on the time invested there instead of trusting to actually move into those actions. And it's interesting because it's this isn't even just like newbies in business. This is people who have years of a very successful business, seven, seven multi-seven figure business, even that because they're pivoting, because they're doing something different, they have to be shown, like they're experts already. And now they need to step out showing that they are new at something because they've never done this before. And there's a whole lot of friction between what they need to do and who they used to be, that that can often be the thing in the way. Like

Fear Of Being New In Public

Sheila 21:13

it's it's big, right? And it's so none of us are immune. Doesn't matter how financially successful we are, how big our business is, if we're making a change, especially frankly, the more successful you are, you have visibility, you're in front of more people. But I would love to hear like what do you say to someone in that space who may be afraid to publicly fail, which we know there's no failure, but like to be shown like they don't have all the answers and they need to move forward?

Speaker 21:50

I would first ask them Are you truly moving towards something that you Even want anymore? This version of your business, this version of success that you're trying so hard to get, can we first revisit this and make sure that this is truly in alignment with the human that you are today, with the values you have today? Does this business and everything that comes with it, does it match how you want to be spending your time, how you want to spend your days? And I would get the vision in alignment first. And I just did a practice, oh my gosh, that was just yesterday, of feeling a little static, um, not in my purpose, not even necessarily in the action that I'm taking, but there was static in my vision. And when I really sat with it and got into the sort of nooks and crannies of it, I saw, oh my gosh, I'm building this version of my business that I'm seeing other people do online and it works and it works for them, and they do it beautifully, but I'm not in that phase of my life right now. So if I try to build something, I can do all of the inner work that I want, all the identity work, I can even take all the action that I want, there will still continue to be that static. So that's the first thing that I would do is get clear on that. And honestly, what I would have a client do is going to be different, you know, depending on the woman behind the business. But this right here, I believe, opens up so much clarity because that then starts to trickle in. Okay, if this, and I mean, let's be honest, a lot of the time that static is there because we are trying to create a success that we're not even excited about anymore. That's not truly in alignment with, again, who we are and the life that we want behind the scenes of our business. And once this sort of light bulb moment happens, then we can start to rearrange, pivot, shift. But this alone is so incredibly empowering. And I had the moment yesterday where I thought, now I can do something with this. Now that I know what I've been working towards doesn't excite me, what does? And then we start to, you know, be the co-creators of our business and do the practical day-to-day of what is it that you want? And I think we want to overcomplicate business. And again, this is true if you're just starting out, you know, beginning phases, you know, five years in your business, or you've been in the game for a while. It's it's the it's like you coming back to that clarity. Is this what you want? But we do. We overcomplicate it. And in my heart of hearts, I believe that the business you would most like to have is the business that you are here to build. And it really can look that simple.

Sheila 25:04

That is such a beautiful permission slip for all of us because there is this idea of, well, is someone else doing it? And well, even if they were, they're not gonna do it the way you would do it. Number one. But number two, this whole idea of it's like we are, it's like moving from proving energy, like, oh, I'm going to build this because I said it was what I was gonna do, or it's I was on the path to that, or other people are doing it. And it's shifting to an inner success version of what really do I want? And when I know and am clear on that, then I actually am going to be serving at a much higher level because the gone. Because that's I find the thing that most blocks the action, first it's the clarity, and then it is too much inward focus. Yes, we need to have our ideas about what we need and what are what's important to us, et cetera. But when we put so much focus on ourselves, it almost creates a stagnancy, it slows momentum, and we have to look at, well, wait a second, what is this idea that has been given to me that I'm supposed to birth into the world? It's truly meant to help others. So let me help others. Like even a parallel in just regular life. I find if I've been having a challenge with, I don't know, something in my life, in my family relationship or whatever, and having a down day, what how what really helps me is when I dip into my vox or dip into my DMs, dip into my just text chain and see how someone else is doing. And just it's not bypassing how I'm feeling, but it really is it it reconnects me to how we all need each other. And my work here is very powerful. So I need to stay focused on what that really is, and that is about helping other people. But staying stuck in our head, it just it creates this loop, right? And so I love, I love this. Um, I love this, what you share, the the vision, really getting clear on that first and really honoring who are you right now? Who do you want to be? It's very, very powerful. I

Simplicity And Bold Movement Forward

Sheila 27:14

would love to know before we close. Based on all of that, what is lighting you up the most right now in your business? I know simplicity is one word that may be able to define it, but I would love to hear what that's gonna do.

Speaker 27:31

Yes, simplicity for sure. Um and honestly, just movement forward. And that's that I think is so simple, but kind of like you were just saying, we get so caught up in our heads, and we we do have a tendency, if you love the inner work, to just sort of get in this swampy place of I need to heal more, and I need to do more inner work, I need to do, you know, before I take this action forward. And when it comes to identity, what I have found over the last few months is that I like our action is how we really integrate that identity. You can't just write in your journal and feel the feeling of the woman. That's part of it for sure. But it's the action forward, it's the practical, messy, everyday, mundane things that aren't highlighted on social media or LinkedIn or on a podcast. It's that tangible action that is what really shifts things internally, but then externally as well. Because we're not only doing the inner work, we're backing it up through empowered action. And I do, I just believe that this is the year where we are being told you've done enough inner work. I'm celebrating you. And it's it's that kind of firehorse vibe. I really do feel that deeply, that it's time to really propel ourselves forward, to do the thing that we've been afraid to do, to allow ourselves to fully be seen, to stop hiding, to stop distracting ourselves with busy work and really go all in, like full in on this beautiful life and business. But again, not just through what we do inside of our journal or our meditation, but who we're becoming on this sort of physical plane. So it's simplicity and bold, unapologetic action forward.

Sheila 29:41

It's so

Legacy Lessons And Where To Connect

Sheila 29:42

beautiful. And that is how legacies are born. I have to share this part because so Keri, you and I both we love RB hip hop, like we love the old school, we love the 90s and 90s music. And we both saw, I shared something with you from the BET tribute to Lauren Hill. And it was so inspiring because that kind of sums it up. This woman who wrote this legendary album so many decades ago that is still considered like an incredible album by so many people. And she's being honored. And all of these newer artists, some older artists, Queen Latifa was there, and Neo, they were performing her hits. And then hearing her acceptance speech, it just made me realize like she went after the thing that she knew she was put here to do. And look how it has impacted so many people. Like there's anthems that she has written. And she actually said in her acceptance speech, you know, I've been fighting for all of you for years, and I will continue to. And it's like, wow, it's so empowering and to know that we get to do that in our own special way with whatever it is we believe we've been put here to do. It's just so fun to see it in that regard. Of course, I'm very musical, so it really hits hard when I see that kind of stuff. And so I mean, let this be a lesson for all of us. Like we get to choose and let it let it be the thing that moves us forward into what we're meant to be doing next. But I'm really grateful that I got to be on this journey with you, Miss Keri, because oh, the inspirational talks we have. It's it's incredible. Like your clients are so blessed that you're guiding them in the way that you are, because you really are just so present and so clear. And you, you just you guide people in such a way that really brings out the best in people and does inspire that aligned action. So thank you for the work that you do and thank you for being here.

Speaker 31:37

Yes. Thank you so much. And I I love that we ended on hip hop. And my God, if she would have kept that inside of her, you know, and wouldn't have taken that just like the courage that that took. And um, that is something we all get to lean into. Thank you so much.

Sheila 31:57

Oh, everyone, it's been so wonderful to have this conversation. And I'm happy to let you in on what some of our conversations could be like. This was a little more organized of a conversation, but I'm telling you, there's some stuff that happens on Voxer that is really worthwhile us going back to listen to Keri and sharing with others. So to follow along, what Keri's up to and to see all the things that she's building and that you can take advantage of, you can find her at kerikugler.com. You can find my stuff at sheilabotelho.com. I'm going to link both those websites as well as our socials. And you can connect over there. Thank you for being here.